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E-cigarettes: Is Australia missing out?

Discussion in 'Politics, News, Media, Campaigns' started by The Vaper, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    don't be a wimp:hide:
    we need good quotes to tweet

    ecigs are causing absenteeism in schools ( first i heard that)
     
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  2. DogMan

    DogMan Mutley

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    Try to be positive, margy. I missed the start, but all arguments i heard had a response from other side. And presenter just summarised each side without opinion really. Worlds ahead of radio national even a year ago.
     
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  3. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    Professor Matthew Peters
    Head of Respiratory Medicine, Concord Hospital

    " The idea that another jurisdiction can look at a public health problem and form a different view and we have to follow them is nonsense. We don't need to experiment with something like Ecigarettes"
     
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  4. Pippi

    Pippi Admin Moderator

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    Victoria
    Lol you did better than me - I dont seem to have a decent recording device - or if I do I have no frigging idea where it is.
    Edit - another job for Doggie when we have lunch next month - he good with old folks and smart phones :nod:
     
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  5. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

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    Sydney 2016
    Ha ha ha.. This contrasts distinctly with what Chappie was saying a year or so ago when he was sure other places like the US and the EU were going to stomp on vaping from a heavy height. Words to the effect "We must look very closely at what other places are doing.."

    Hasn't this guy heard the (recent?) mantra, "We must give a consistent 'public health' message, so STFU if you don't agree with me"?
     
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  6. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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  7. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Haven't listened yet & I probably don't want to until later, when I can reply properly (stupid dry eyes make it near impossible to type correctly) but I read all of Margy's notes, seems to me it wasn't a very balanced reporting on that evidence.
     
  8. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    It was Noe
    I was just angrily noting worst bits
    They did explain how uk came up with 95% safer facts but dickheads in Aus thinks it’s
    a joke
     
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  9. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
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    Sydney 2016
    Thanks for that, Margy. I'm glad I've now listened to the entire thing.

    Yes, the crap from the antis was bad. I'm sure I'd heard rumblings of just about everything they'd claimed, they used distortions (e.g. association equates to causation), obscure studies for the 'truancy' of children and the asthma/ lung harm claims. And then of course they were able to hand wave every logical objection to their tripe & continue shoveling it. I was also disappointed that they got both the first and last word in.

    On the bright side, Colin and Marewa both gave credible, balanced counter points. A smoker listening to that would have heard that even the antis cannot really say that vaping is worse than smoking, some blather about children that doesn't relate to why an adult smoker should not try vape, basically nothing in the anti's responses that could discourage them from trying it if interested.

    That last part was important in that the more smokers we lure away from smoking, the stronger our case is, and the less that politicians will be willing to rely on the FUD of the antis to continue the defacto consumer sale ban on nicotine.

    Loved the interviewer making the comment we were 'going nowhere fast' just before cutting back to Greg Hunt and his 'not on my watch' comment. Glad they pointed out ASH England & Scotland saying (qualified but) positive things about vape, and also mentioning NZ moving towards allowing access.

    Then Marewa came in with strong points about how there were groups (low SES, homeless, indigenous etc.) being left behind and Matthew Peters hand waved it with 'we're doing fine already' when it would have been pretty obvious to the casual listener that we were not and he wanted to continue with the same worn out strategies that had so far completely failed to help them.

    Apparently Colin will be debating that Prof Matthew Peters of Concorde Hospital(1) directly some day next week (whereas in that interview, he did not even realise that Marewa was also being interviewed). I'd sorely love to see that debate (2 on each side), but I vaguely recall the tickets were >$200 and not an expenditure I felt could be justified (let alone afforded).
    1. If my vague recollection is correct, once a huge void was discovered in my left lung by my 'lung guy', he offered me a referral to see one of the 'leading lung guys' in Australia at ..Concorde Hospital for a mere $450 initial consultation on whether surgery could help. (Which of course, would then cost a shit-load more). It must have been him. Glad I did not waste any money on it. Even my lung guy thought it had low chance of helping, and I'd be loathe to know that I awarded that guy funds - he doesn't even deserve oxygen.
     
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  10. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Someone needs to tell the dickheads that they are helping Big Tobacco kill people by fear mongering about ecigs.
     
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  11. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    LOL Andrew if he was the last DR on earth I wouldn’t see him , his bedside manner must be appalling judging how he spoke
    I googled him and he has some dealings with CC, so I bet he is good mates with Slimon and Daube & Greg Hunt and I bet they have had many taxpayer funded dinners/conferences +++++++discussing TC

    (I bet that professor Peters hates smokers but smokers have paid his wages and topped up his super)
     
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  12. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Nothing like getting the "plebs" you hate paying for your existence!
    Even better if you can tell them how to live & bully them constantly, while reducing their freedoms more & more systematically.
    They used to call that slavery, now they just call it TC.
     
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  13. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

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    Sydney 2016
     
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  14. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2...alia-out-of-step-with-other-countries/9138430

    Check out the fact check in link for 2014

    E-cigarettes: Is Australia out of step with other countries?
    First posted earlier today at 05:46
    [​IMG]
    About four per cent of Australian smokers currently use e-cigarettes.

    (Getty Images: Martina Paraninfi)

    E-cigarettes and their potential health effects have been hotly contested for some time.

    Advocates say they are a less harmful alternative to tobacco cigarettes, and could help smokers quit, and, ultimately, save lives.

    But many Australian public health experts oppose the use of e-cigarettes, arguing there isn't enough evidence to show they're safe.

    They point to Australia's low smoking rates, and say we should continue what we're doing to lower them further. In their view, there's no need for a new, potentially dangerous product.

    Last month, Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt said he would never lift the ban on e-cigarettes, despite an ongoing parliamentary inquiry into their use.

    told triple j Hack.

    But Mr Hunt's position is at odds with health authorities in comparable nations including England, Scotland and more recently, New Zealand, who have backed e-cigarettes in a bid to lower smoking rates and reduce harm.

    So why is Australia taking a more pre-cautionary approach?

    How do e-cigarettes work?
    • E-cigarettes are battery operated devices that heat a cartridge of liquid nicotine into a mist to be vaporised.
    • They deliver nicotine (the addictive agent in cigarettes) without burning tobacco and producing harmful smoke.
    • Smoking e-cigarettes is often referred to as 'vaping'.
    World leader in tobacco control
    Australia has long been considered a world leader in tobacco control — smoking rates have dropped by nearly 10 per cent over the past two decades.

    "We have very low rates of smoking that are going lower, and we don't need to experiment with something like e-cigarettes at the moment," Professor Matthew Peters, Head of Respiratory Medicine at Concord Hospital in Sydney, told The Health Report.

    Professor Peters is among the bloc of public health professionals, including Emeritus Professor Simon Chapman and Professor Mike Daube, who don't want to see e-cigarettes introduced in Australia.

    told PM in February.

    The TGA is also concerned vaping may make the practice of smoking more acceptable again, damaging the campaign to decrease tobacco use in Australia.

    But some say the TGA looked only at the potential risks of e-cigarettes, not the benefits, and argue Australia is out of step with the UK, US, European Union, Canada and now New Zealand.

    We asked if you thought Australia should be less cautious about e-cigarettes. Read the discussion in the comments.

    Tide is turning overseas
    In September, Scotland's national health agency released a statement saying e-cigarettes are "definitely" less harmful than tobacco smoking and that it would be "a good thing" if smokers switched to vaping (though not if they used both at the same time).

    And last month, New Zealand's Health Ministry endorsed the use of e-cigarettes as a harm reduction aid and a smoking cessation tool. In England, e-cigarettes have been available for several years and their use, sale, and some advertising of products is legal.

    Colin Mendelsohn, Associate Professor in Public Health at the University of New South Wales, says the recent slowdown in Australia's declining daily smoking rates suggests we should look for alternative strategies.

    "We have a very large population of smokers who can't quit with what we're currently doing," Dr Mendelsohn said.

    European Addiction Research journal, which weighed up nicotine products by their potential to harm users and others around them.

    But critics of that research say it was arrived at by the consensus of a group of public health experts, rather than original scientific research.

    Professor Peters questions the extent to which the figure has been relied upon in the e-cigarettes debate.

    "Let's suppose the 95 per cent figure is not right. What if it's 80 per cent? What if it's 60 per cent? What if it's 40 per cent? And who would know?" he said.

    Want more ABC Health & Wellbeing?[/paste:font]
    Subscribe for our weekly update of Health and Wellbeing news, features and opinion from around the ABC. Or you can like us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  15. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    Location:
    Lindisfarne Tasmania
    Fact check note 2014

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/factcheck/2014-08-03/do-e-cigarettes-help-people-quit-smoking/5636298
    Fact check: Too soon to know if e-cigarettes help people quit smoking
    ( ABC News )
    Video expired Tue 2 Feb 2016, 12:00am AEST
    E-cigarettes are increasingly popular with smokers and people who are trying to quit smoking.

    Dr Tarun Weeramanthri is the Executive Director of Public Health at the Western Australian Department of Health. He told ABC Radio on June 3, 2014, that the evidence doesn't support the idea that e-cigarettes help people stop smoking.

    "Some people will say, you know, and it may be true on the individual basis, these devices helped me quit. But when we look at the evidence, many more people keep smoking both normal cigarettes and e-cigarettes," he said.

    "So the long term trials haven't been that conclusive about the effectiveness of e-cigarettes to help people actually stop smoking."

    ABC Fact Check investigates.

    • The claim: The executive director of public health at the WA Department of Health, Dr Tarun Weeramanthri, says "some people will say [e-cigarettes] helped me quit, but when we look at the evidence, many more people just keep smoking both normal cigarettes and e-cigarettes".
    • The verdict: It's too soon to know.
    What are e-cigarettes?
    E-cigarettes are battery-powered devices. Some closely resemble conventional cigarettes, but others don't. The device includes a refillable cartridge containing "e-liquid" or "e-juice".

    The liquid usually contains nicotine, as well as flavours and chemicals which are converted into a vapour and absorbed into the bloodstream. Flavours range from menthol through to pina colada and banana split.

    The vapour is exhaled as an odourless mist. Smoking an e-cigarette is often called vaping.

    Why are people using e-cigarettes?
    Research shows that people often use e-cigarettes in the hope that they will help them quit smoking.

    E-cigarettes provide the nicotine hit found in conventional cigarettes but do not contain tobacco. Because vaping mimics smoking, it is thought to help with the behavioural aspect of cravings.

    People also think that e-cigarettes are less dangerous than conventional cigarettes. Recent studies show between 80 and 84 per cent of users thought they were less harmful.

    Surveys show that in 2012, seven per cent of adults in the European Union and the United States had tried e-cigarettes, according to a recent scientific review by researchers from the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education at the University of California, San Francisco.

    The researchers said all the population-based studies they reviewed showed that people still smoking tobacco were the main users followed by former smokers, with non-smokers the least common users.

    What are the risks?
    E-cigarettes can contain nicotine, which is highly addictive and can have harmful effects on the developing foetus in pregnant women.

    The level of nicotine in the e-liquid is high enough to raise concerns and there have been reports of nicotine poisoning if the liquid is spilled on the skin or ingested.

    E-cigarette vapour is not simply water vapour. It contains small particles, similar in size and number to those found in tobacco smoke, that reach deep into the lungs. While it includes toxic substances, these are at much lower levels than in conventional cigarettes.

    The safe lower limit for exposure to these toxicants is unknown. The long-term effects of some of the ingredients in the vapour like propylene glycol in inhaled form, as opposed to its more widespread use as a topical or ingested agent, are unknown.

    Australia's Quitline says "there is a lack of evidence that e-cigarettes are safe to use, or that they help people to quit smoking".

    What are the current controls on e-cigarettes in Australia?
    E-cigarettes are not currently approved for use as a quitting device in Australia, as they have not yet been assessed by the Therapeutic Goods Administration, whose website says the Australian Government is concerned about the use of e-cigarettes, and the impact of wide scale use is unknown.

    A spokesman for the Department of Health told Fact Check that so far no e-cigarette manufacturers have applied for approval or provided any safety or efficacy data to the TGA.

    Without TGA approval, e-cigarettes cannot be imported as quitting devices, or sold as such.

    Importing the devices is not prohibited as long as the packaging does not make a claim about any form of therapeutic benefit.

    But selling the device within Australia may be illegal under state and territory legislation because most states prohibit the sale of goods resembling tobacco products, even those without nicotine.

    Western Australia recently prosecuted Vincent Van Heerden, whose company Heavenly Vapours was selling nicotine-free e-cigarette devices over the internet. He was fined $1750 and ordered to pay court costs of over $14,000for breaching the WA Tobacco Products Control Act 2006.

    Nicotine is classified as a 'Schedule 7 Dangerous Poison' and it is illegal to sell it unless a permit has been granted.

    Users in Australia get around the ban on sale by importing small personal supplies of the liquid refills from overseas.

    The evidence for e-cigarettes as a quitting device
    When asked why he thought e-cigarettes did not help people quit, Dr Weeramanthri referred Fact Check to a 2012 scientific review by the University of California, San Francisco. It found more people end up using both e-cigarettes and conventional cigarettes, instead of quitting tobacco completely.

    The review pooled the results of five population-based studies and found e-cigarette users were less likely to quit tobacco cigarettes than people who smoked tobacco but not e-cigarettes.

    There are a handful of overseas studies that suggest e-cigarettes could be effective for quitting smoking, but all have significant limitations.

    "A survey of almost 6000 adults in the UK found 20 per cent of e-cigarette users had quit tobacco cigarettes in the previous 12 months. Only 10 per cent of respondents who had used over-the-counter nicotine replacement therapy (like patches) and 15 per cent of those using no quitting agent at all had managed to quit tobacco cigarettes.

    While this suggests e-cigarette users were the most successful quitters, there are several limitations to the study. It relied on self-reporting which can affect recall and lead to over- or under-reporting depending on method used.

    Long-term quitting and relapse rates are unclear. The longest quit attempt of those surveyed was 12 months.

    The study also shows a much higher number of participants continued to smoke tobacco cigarettes compared to those who quit. Eighty per cent of e-cigarette users had not stopped smoking tobacco cigarettes at the time they were surveyed.

    A randomised controlled trial in New Zealand looked at smokers who attempted to quit using nicotine e-cigarettes, nicotine patches, or nicotine-free e-cigarettes. It found that while slightly more people in the nicotine e-cigarettes group quit, so few people in any of the three groups stopped smoking that the differences were not statistically significant. Its authors said: "Uncertainty exists about the place of e-cigarettes in tobacco control, and more research is urgently needed".

    A review of published data included an analysis of nine studies looking at e-cigarettes and quitting. It found the data was "ultimately inconclusive" and that e-cigarettes are "of uncertain benefit in quitting smoking".

    What the experts say
    The director of advocacy at Cancer Council Australia, Paul Grogan, says there is a lack of convincing evidence that e-cigarettes help people quit, and the Cancer Council has concerns over the widespread introduction of e-cigarettes because they could reduce Australia's quitting rates and increase the acceptability of smoking again.

    The latest data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics on smoking shows that in 2012, just over 16 per cent of the population aged 18 and over, or 2.8 million Australians, smoked tobacco.

    More recent findings released in July by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare show the number of daily smokers aged 14 and over has dropped from about 15 per cent in 2010 to 12.8 per cent in 2013.

    OECD data from 2010 showed Australia, with 15 per cent of the population smoking daily, had the sixth lowest rate among 40 surveyed countries. The OECD average is 21 per cent, with Russia and Greece the heaviest smokers at nearly 34 per cent and 32 per cent respectively.

    Mr Grogan said the research on e-cigarettes so far has limited relevance for Australian smokers, because most were overseas studies and do not compare to the Australian context of low smoking rates and a ready availability of effective quitting therapies.

    Professor Wayne Hall, Director of the University of Queensland Centre for Youth Substance Abuse Research, said people on both sides of the debate are making firm statements despite flimsy observational evidence and often with a selective approach to the literature.

    Professor Hall, a signatory to an open letter to the World Health Organisationasking for e-cigarettes to be considered as part of a wider harm reduction strategy, believes current bans in Australia should be reconsidered.

    "We've been trying to run a randomised controlled trial... but we can't do our study in certain states because it is a criminal offence to distribute the nicotine," he said.

    Professor Stephen Leeder, Emeritus Professor of Public Health and Community Medicine at the University of Sydney, says e-cigarettes exist in an "evidence-free zone" and caution is necessary.

    Professor Leeder, a signatory to a second open letter to the WHO urging a strict regulatory framework for e-cigarettes, says the current scientific literature is problematic because of the short duration of the studies.

    "You've got to have studies that will look at a duration that's biologically meaningful – it's not much use quitting for six months," he told Fact Check.

    Professor Mike Daube, from Curtin University in Perth and also a signatory to the second letter, told Fact Check that on the basis of the currently available evidence it was correct to say e-cigarettes were more likely to result in people both vaping and smoking.
    But he said it was very difficult to make "any sensible assessments about e-cigarette-type products" due to a lack of quality control and good information about them.

    "We are still in the very early stages, and we don't actually know very much – from what's actually in them, to their longer-term health impacts," he said.

    The verdict
    Dr Weeramanthri can say that recent evidence has shown e-cigarettes more often result in people continuing to use both e-cigarettes and conventional cigarettes instead of quitting smoking.

    But current research is generally of poor quality and experts contacted by Fact Check said there was not enough reliable scientific evidence to be sure about the effectiveness or otherwise of e-cigarettes as a quitting agent.

    It's too soon to know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  16. DogMan

    DogMan Mutley

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    S/E Melbourne
    Updated 11 August 2014 at 11:35 am
    First posted 3 August 2014 at 6:34 pm

    :?:
     
  17. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    Yeah I know it’s old
    I must read it properly again as I missed the 2014
    I thought it said this year
    Thanks for pointing it out Dan :):)
     
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  18. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

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    Maybe we should ask for another fact check as that one is 3 years old
     
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  19. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    Maybe we should reframe the question as:

    "Is there enough evidence of harm to the general public, to justify a defacto ban of this THR alternative?"


    The earlier question was almost set up to fail.
     

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