Starter kit killer!!!

Discussion in 'Beginners' started by sonnen, Jul 22, 2015.

  1. Jennifer

    Jennifer Pyjama Queen

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    When I see the clouds of vapour that comes out of people's mouth when they subohm it scares me a bit. And so does the whole lung hit thing. Basically the lungs are meant to breathe air, anything else being inhaled over time can't be a good thing in my mind.

    I feel lucky that a standard clearo/ego set up is satisfying for me, although I did dual use for a while in the beginning. But I don't think dual using is a problem if someone has it in mind to eventually lose the smoke. It happened quite naturally for me and I wasn't initially intent on stopping smoking. Only after I started vaping did I realise it was a possibility.

    I reckon it's more important to dilute the flavour strength over time than it is to reduce the nicotine. Nicotine in my mind is a sort of preventative medicine. It manages mild depression and anxiety, improves concentration, and can potentially prevent dementia and Parkinsons in some people. So I've decided to stick with the nicotine and go easy on the flavours and vapour volume.

    I'd hesitate to recommend subohm devices to a new vaper, except in instances where the person is really struggling to switch.
     
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  2. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Unflavored is safer than vaping flavored, subohming or not.
     
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  3. Big O

    Big O Member

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    Still has its downsides I'm guessing....
     
  4. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Yes, because inhaling anything but plain air is more of a potential risk.
     
  5. Jennifer

    Jennifer Pyjama Queen

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    Exactly Noe.

    In terms of inhalation risk, my understanding is, from lowest risk to highest:
    -Nicotine
    -PG
    -VG
    -Flavours
     
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  6. Big O

    Big O Member

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    Hmmm woulda thought VG would be before PG.
     
  7. Big O

    Big O Member

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    And nicotine on the bottom, being a poison.... Depends on the ppm I suppose.
     
  8. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    I tend to agree with the last 2 on that list but I am not certain about the order of the first 2.
    However the risk % would be very little between them & even between the 1st 2 & VG the risk % would be quite low, the risk % between the 1st 3 & flavors is going to be a significant jump.
    Flavors probably represent at least 80% of the total risk.
     
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  9. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko Senior Member

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    Nicotine is the lowest because it is best understood and at a relatively low concentration. PG inhalation has been better studied than VG so we "just don't know". Agree that flavours are the highest risk COMPARITIVELY; but again we're talking about tiny amounts of risk, especially compared to smoking. We inhale various perfumes, flavour and emission chemicals all day. I would think walking on a street with busy traffic trumps all those risks 100 fold. I believe that long term studies will show no measurable added mortality or disease risk from vaping. In fact, with nicotine's cognitive enhancing effects it may even show a small life extension benefit. But this is pure speculation. Mostly we have to emphasise that even the most dangerous forms of vaping are far far safer than any form of smoking.
     
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  10. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Slightly off what the Doc and others were talking about.... but @sonnen the Kanger Subtanks I bought had 1 of each rated premade coils in the new box (1.2 & 0.5) PLUS one RDA "coil head" - that allowed you to roll your own if that is what you'd prefer. Further I think FT stock loose RDA heads for 'em too.
     
  11. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Yes - your logic seems sound, Noe. But it doesn't work for me and perhaps others with my lack of will power/self control. To explain - I smoked frequently (too frequently - up to 40 per day). I vape at least as much and very often if not continuously. Unless circumstances are such that I cannot vape I do. I lack the will power to wait....

    So I vape lots. If my device burns more juice each hit, then I'll use more juice (and nic) in the day. So I mix my nic ratio based sorta on the average of my devices. I use 10 mg/ml in everything and the device used determines how many ml consumed per day.

    That said I don't have/do any wild super sub ohm cloud chaser big juice burner things. :)

    Maybe that isn't the wisest way to go, but it is the way I go.
     
  12. sonnen

    sonnen Member

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    i currently vape 12mg nic and go through 5-8 mls a day
     
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  13. Gasman

    Gasman Senior Member

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    I found that 32 mg was what worked for me when I started vaping using a ego and iclear 16. That's where I stayed for about 12 months quite happily. I realised that 32 mg was too high but justified it by thinking its safer than smoking. Once I tried rebuildables and subsequently subtanks my nic level is 9-18 mg in them. I have never changed the flavour percentage in any of my mixes, basically working on manufacturers or vendors recommendations. To be honest I sometimes find that using the recommendations results in a juice tasting a bit weak and have mixed a little stronger than specified. I have also found some doublers a bit weak and added a few drops of concentrate to give it a bit more. So now I'm also thinking " probably not the best but better than smoking". Ultimately I will use what I enjoy and works for me unless it's conclusively proven by a trustworthy( in my opinion) source that it's not.
     
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  14. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko Senior Member

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    Even the worst diacetyl and acetoin filled ejuice is better than smoking.
     
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  15. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Thank you.
     
  16. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Even if you are vaping 15 -20mls per day, with juice that has 2500PPM?

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf

    Skip to about 1hr 30min in or if you are short on time to 1hr 46mins in :
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
  17. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko Senior Member

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    The best research on ecig toxicity comes from Dr Farsalinos. He is totally objective in his research and agrees that avoidable exposures to diacetyl and other substances that can be toxic to the lungs should be avoided. He has done more work in this field than anyone else, and most importantly, compares e-cig exposures to combusted cigarette exposures. He is not afraid to point out problems with e-liquid to make the industry as safe as possible.

    Nevertheless, when he did his major research on diacetyl (the popcorn lung chemical) he found that even the worst e-liquids had far less diacetyl than normal cigarettes. Even though the diacetyl levels in the worst eliquids were 495 times higher than the very strict standards for occupational exposure, cigarettes were on average 100 times worse for diacetyl levels. ie cigarettes give off diacetyl at 49500 times the standards for occupational exposure.

    This is just for diacetyl. Consider that cigarettes have thousands of other lung damaging chemicals as well! So there is no contest whatsoever between even the worst eliquids and the best cigarettes.

    http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/research/research-2014/178-da-ap
     
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  18. Donna

    Donna Senior Member

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    What are your thoughts on direct lung inhalation Attila? I recall both Polosa and Farsalinos agreeing this is a practice that does cause them both some concern.
     
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  19. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko Senior Member

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    It simply represents a larger volume of vapor being inhaled. There's a limit in mouth to lung, that is the capacity to draw vapor into your mouth. Maybe 100-200 mls. With lung hits, the maximum capacity is the capacity of your lungs which is 3-5 liters. Having said that, even the biggest sub ohm cloud chasing lung hit vapers will find it very hard to approach even a fraction of the danger of smoking. It explains why nic levels are dropping dramatically among vapers with newer gear. 3mg/ml subohm big lung hit vaping could be equivalent to 50 mg/ml mouth to lung hits.

    However, I believe that anything that gets you off smoking is good, and a big lung hit gives you much more nicotine absorption more quickly, and might make the difference for some people to get off smoking entirely.

    Ideally you have a higher nic concentration with your lung hits so you take less vapor, or less hits, but still get good satisfaction.
     
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  20. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    It's all about satisfaction, if you get that from tootling along then great, if you need to blind yourself in clouds then OK, as long as you're not smoking but it doesn't hurt to taking the possible risks of vaping into account too :)
     
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